[00:00:00] Intro: This is the Texas Land Guys Podcast hosted by brothers Tim Dosch and Tom Dosch. With their partners, David Marshall and Tripp Rich, they have built DMRE, the leading land brokerage in Texas. With decades of experience brokering deals between landowners and real estate developers, they take you inside the deals that move the market.

[00:00:28] Tom Dosch: Welcome to the Texas Land Guys Podcast. Tim, how are you doing this morning?

[00:00:31] Tim Dosch: I’m doing good. I’m excited for this episode. It’s going to be a good one.

[00:00:34] Tom Dosch: Should be good. We had been thinking for a while about doing an episode on data centers, and so we recorded one and released it a couple of weeks ago, and we’ve gotten a lot of feedback. And I think we expected, I don’t know if you had thought much about the feedback we would get. I expected quite a bit of just pushback because we tried to really approach the data center question a little bit differently than just what you’re hearing as a narrative. out in the media because the narrative is very negative against data centers. There’s something like 200 moratoriums right now across the US. I think over 20 of those are statewide moratoriums, but then you have, or moratoriums coming from states. Others are more local municipality moratoriums against data centers. I think like 3/4 of people, over 70% of the populace are against data center development. And every week it seems like we’re hearing about another data center that is being potentially stop from being able to be developed. There was a big one this last week in North Carolina, $20 billion data center. There was so much public opposition that it’s not moving forward, at least at this time, to being developed. And so we got quite a bit of pushback, and I think we were talking about it and thought, why don’t we just discuss some of that on the podcast? Because I think you and I are really very open-minded to this, and we’re trying to learn as much as we can about it. We’re by no means experts when it comes to water usage in data centers, or just all the ins and outs of the impact a data center has maybe on the environment. However, a lot of the arguments and things that we’re hearing, they really start to border a little bit on the line of conspiracy theories. And I think that’s where we don’t want to go. I think we want this to be like a good discourse that we can do some research and we can ask real questions. I don’t think we intended our last episode to be completely thorough by any means. And so some of these questions that we thought would be kind of fun to talk through today, just go deeper into some of the parts of this that we didn’t address on the first go-around.

[00:02:27] Tim Dosch: Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because I think you have some people that are against it, and then once they decide that they’re against it, they try and figure out reasons why they’re against it. And, you know, some of them are, we actually had some good comments, and that was kind of what I was looking for. You’re going to have a lot of people, and sometimes it’s just bots. I think unfortunately today in social media, whether it’s YouTube or Facebook or whatever, it’s, you’re not even dealing with real people a lot of times. You’re dealing with these these bots that are taking one side of an issue and trying to create controversy or opposition. But I think we did get some people that were trying to be thoughtful and trying to put together an argument. And I think, like you’re saying, that’s where we are. We want to talk about the real arguments and the real concerns that people have. And we do think this is something that is definitely happening. Data centers are happening. They’re going to continue to happen, whether they’re happening in some remote desert, And that’s the only place people will allow them, or they’re happening in outer space, or they’re happening in the ocean somewhere, or they’re in people, in communities where people live. People have talked about there being certain development zones where there’s a lot more openness to AI infrastructure, to robots, to experimenting with things. We have a new world that is starting that is just rapidly happening, and I think it’s happening way too fast for most people. And I think we want to be compassionate and sensitive to that because it’s, People don’t like change. A lot of people, I think, still live in the ’90s. They want that kind of a comfort that we had back then. And then they want to have some of these things that we have today that are different than the ’90s, like Netflix and streaming and iPhones and some of that. But they want the safety and the comfort of that time. And we’re in a different world than we were back then. If you look at just geopolitically and the way things are being shaken up around the world, the changes that are happening in technology, I think you and me look at it from more of an optimistic side. I’m very excited about just what could happen in healthcare, the breakthroughs that could happen with cancer research, dementia research, a lot of these things that are, you could really better the quality and even the longevity of people’s lives. But I think that there’s going to be just a lot of change that happens and that people aren’t ready for. Even think about self-driving cars even though that’s happening now, people aren’t really ready for that.

[00:04:41] Tom Dosch: Yeah, it’s a really good point. And I think what we’re hoping to highlight too is just some of the positives around AI and data centers. Like I was telling you, I just drove back from Colorado this summer when we were on family vacation and we were driving on a Saturday through Kirkland, Texas, and there’s this massive development and I’d noticed it on the way out, but I hadn’t really paid a ton of attention. And so I looked it up and it’s a gigawatt data center on 270 acres. And there’s a ton of people that were working there. The number of cars there, it’s still under construction. The number of cars there was incredible. And that was on a Saturday. People that they wouldn’t have had a job out there if not for that data center. And this was not taking up like really valuable land. You’re kind of out in the middle of not a lot of development. You drive out there, the minimum speeds are somewhere between 75 and 80 miles an hour. Gives you an idea of the density of the population. It’s a great area to put a data center. It creates jobs, it’ll create a tax base. And so you want to highlight that too, because I think the comparisons immediately when I say something like it creates jobs, then someone will say they’re not permanent or, but this industry creates more jobs. But that’s not really what I’m saying. This is creating jobs that wouldn’t have been there before. And this is creating an economic base for this area that wouldn’t have been there before. And so I think just highlighting that, and to your point, highlighting the advancements, I think air is very much the low-hanging fruit of Hopefully everyone wants our healthcare to be improved. And so hopefully we can all rally around that and not slow down the progress of the development and not get to see some of these diseases that we’ve had for a long time be solved.

[00:06:19] Tim Dosch: No, that’s right. I think there’s a lot of people that deal with this at more of an emotional level, which I think is just normal with anything. Whenever there’s big change, there’s an emotional reaction to it. And you have people that are either going to be for it or they’re going to be against it. And then I think human nature is you look for reasons to confirm why you’re for it or why you’re against it. And instead of being open-minded and trying to look at both sides and trying to say, hey, are there real arguments? Are there valuable points? And then a lot of this is how do we solve these things? Because I don’t think that you can’t take the side that there’s no issues at all with data centers and AI, because there are. And you can’t take the side that it’s all bad, because I think that’s silly. There’s obviously incredible benefits to it. I think the real question is, what are the challenges and where are the ways that certain people maybe get hurt or certain industries get hurt? And where are the ways that certain people benefit and certain industries benefit? And then how do we talk through just how to optimize that and how people could work together to make that a better outcome than it could be otherwise? And I think what’s unfortunate is what we’ll probably see is a very political way that this gets handled, where people try and take sides and they make it political and they want to fight over things. That actually don’t make it better for anybody, that just make things slow down. And in a lot of ways, I, I’m definitely not for Communist China, but the way they’re doing things with nuclear and solar and data centers, and they’re going to be pretty hard to beat just because they have a vision and an objective in mind, and they’re going to go for it and make it happen. And there’s not going to be dissent. There’s not going to be opposition. Here, it’s going to be like a 3-legged race, I think. And I think you’re going to have people pulling one way and people pulling another way. And it’s hard to see how the US is going to win this race. I hope that we do. I think we have more innovation, more creativity, but I don’t know that we have the will that they have.

[00:08:15] Tom Dosch: Yeah, we were listening to that podcast recently. It was a Moonshots episode. And do you remember what was the name of the guy they had on that was, he works within the administration. He’s like the head of like science.

[00:08:25] Tim Dosch: Yeah, it’s Mike. It starts with a K. I can’t remember. I don’t know. I think it’s a hard name to pronounce.

[00:08:30] Tom Dosch: It was a really interesting interview. It was at the White House and he was just talking about, you think about how fast this is all happening. It was fascinating. And so if our audience, I definitely check that out. It’s the Moonshots podcast from probably early August. They released that episode, but getting to have questions directed to him and then him answering questions when you’re in that kind of a position. He obviously has to be careful what he says, but it’s really interesting what he was sharing just about the rapid progress, the way that the Trump administration is looking at it, the decisions that have been made. There’s the conversation we’re having around data centers and data centers opposition. And then there’s, you can only imagine that the meetings that are being had in the White House and the conversations that are being had, there’s so much to this and so many layers to how this is going to impact our society.

[00:09:19] Tim Dosch: Yeah.

[00:09:19] Tom Dosch: Obviously, he asked him about jobs and he asked him about where’s our education going, healthcare, how’s the US government thinking about that? In a lot of ways, the US government is having to just kind of look to the private sector. They’re looking to people like Elon Musk and incredible advancements happening there. It’s really hard for them to keep up and it’s really hard for them to regulate. And when they do try to regulate, it’s almost like too late because it’s advanced so much that it’s not relevant anymore. But that was a fascinating episode just to hear his thoughts.

[00:09:49] Tim Dosch: If you look at history, you know, you go back to the Industrial Revolution and there was violence and rioting all throughout the Industrial Revolution, especially when you had mechanized farming happen, when you had these looms, they’re like mechanized looms that they, back in England, the 1840s, there you had people that were rioting and trying to destroy the machines and stuff. And I think it’s just part of human nature. It’s like, this is a threat. This has changed. This could hurt me. And then you have politicians who are going to take that fear and they’re going to amplify it and they’re going to say, hey, follow me, vote me into power because I’ll protect you. And so I think we’re being set up for that, especially for the 2028 election. I think you’re going to see AI become a very big part of that conversation. And how do we protect workers? How do we protect people from AI? And I think that there is a valid point there. Unfortunately, I think that it’s going to get completely politicized in a way that’s not helpful and isn’t actually protecting anyone, but as a way for people to gain power for the sake of power, not to help anyone out.

[00:10:50] Tom Dosch: Before we have Allie, who’s here in the studio with us, read us some of these comments that we got from our last episode, I did want to mention something I left out when we did that episode a few weeks ago. Water has been the big conversation around data centers. And so we talked about water and the almond industry in California. And just the incredible usage of water within the almond industry. But I think I left out golf courses, and I think that’s a really interesting comparison because something like almonds, obviously it’s a food, you can eat it. It’s also a drink. It’s enjoyed by a lot of people. And then something like golf courses would be considered more of, it’s a hobby. A lot of people also enjoy it, but it’s a hobby. And so it takes a lot of water to keep these golf courses up. And so there’s a side-by-side comparison I ran. And this is interesting because it’s in, it’s here in DFW. So it’s Firewheel Golf Parks. This would be in the Garland area. Their annual water usage is 130 million gallons. And so then comparing that side by side with the Garland data centers, there’s 2 major data centers and their annual water usage is 12.3 million gallons combined. So it’s about a 10th of the annual water usage of the Firewheel Golf park. Per day, the golf park is using about 356,000 gallons of water. The data centers combined are using about 34,000 gallons. It’s 10.6 the amount of water, and that’s pretty consistent. Obviously, it would depend on the size of the data center, the size of the golf course, but it’s consistent that golf courses are using a lot more water than data centers. Now, I think there was a comment that we’ll probably get into on that doesn’t mean that it’s good that golf courses are using that much water, or the same for the almond industry. Maybe they shouldn’t be using that much water. It does highlight that I don’t, I’ve never heard of a significant mobilized opposition to golf courses. It’s not like 70% of the populace is against golf courses because of their water usage. And so I think it just highlights like, where are we getting this information from? And why as a society do we hate data centers so much? Because like you said, Tim, we’re trying to understand this and we understand it’s not either or, it’s not 100% either way, but at the same time, over 70% of people just being against it means that there’s some messaging out there that’s causing a lot of confusion.

[00:13:07] Tim Dosch: I think what would be important for us to think about is if we just look at our own history, because there was a time in the 1960s, 1970s where we were really investing in nuclear as a country, and then we had Three Mile Island that happened. I think it was late ’70s, maybe early ’80s, but just put a chilling effect on nuclear in the United States and we shut that off. And then when you look at what China has done since then and dramatically increasing nuclear, and then, you know, at the same time, Europe, I don’t remember exactly which countries, but I think most of the countries in Europe have reduced nuclear, didn’t invest in nuclear. They actually had a lot of deaths this summer because their heat wave, because they have a power issue.

[00:13:46] Tom Dosch: It’s so sad. In 2026, you’d have thousands of people dying in Europe because of heat. It’s like, yeah, you hear that. And sorry to cut you off, Tim, but just you hear that and then it’s like, wait, what did you just say? Was it people died because of heat in Europe?

[00:14:00] Tim Dosch: And you have nuclear is a very safe technology. If you’re worried about climate change, it’s not an issue with climate change. So you have, I’ve seen graphs of how European countries have just been on a downward trajectory of using nuclear and China is just spiking up just using nuclear. And so you just think about that in our country, if we’d been investing in that for the last for my lifetime, last 40, 45 years, where would we be as a country from a cost of energy standpoint? But there was so much fear and there were so many people who were opposed to it. And so much of this kind of not in my backyard, we can’t do nuclear, that we haven’t done that. And so I think we’re paying a price for that. And I think we don’t even realize we’re paying a price for that. But I think we should look at our own history. When you don’t invest in infrastructure, when you get behind other places in the world, they get ahead of you. And I think there’s no question that China has made some very smart decisions in the last 40 years. Even when you look at manufacturing and how that’s created jobs and created, benefited their standard of living. And then at the same time, we’ve gotten rid of manufacturing for the most part in the United States and how that’s hurting a lot of the blue-collar workforce in our country. So it just, I hope people can be a little bit just more thoughtful about this issue and not just jump to one side, but be open-minded and really look at the bigger picture of not just what’s happening now, but where can we go over the next 10 years or 20 years with this?

[00:15:24] Tom Dosch: Well, just to put some numbers, Tim, to what you said about nuclear. So China has 38 nuclear reactors under construction. India has 8, Russia has 7, and then United States, France, Canada, United Kingdom, it’s like a handful. Combined. So it’s just, it’s a significant difference. And obviously they’re in a massive expansion mode in China. And we’re in a, we’re in extremely, we’re not really expanding. We’re like a very slow expansion mode.

[00:15:49] Tim Dosch: And I would say for us would be that we’re doing that because we’re finally realizing we have to, but we weren’t doing that 10 or 20 years ago.

[00:15:56] Tom Dosch: Yeah. This doesn’t even really give numbers. It just says that there’s, I think it’s to your point, it just says that these Western countries are They have a very slow expansion plan, so it’s very little. So I don’t even, there’s not even specific numbers. It just says it’s very little. So yeah, to your point, that’s not good. You’re not good for us. And it’s important, obviously us and China, just the 2 largest really world powers at this point. It’s not good for us to be falling behind in power.

[00:16:24] Tim Dosch: Yeah.

[00:16:24] Tom Dosch: Why don’t we go through some of these comments? Allie, do you want to read off one of the comments and then Tim and I will discuss?

[00:16:31] Allie: Absolutely. So this is one from our Facebook. It says, did you know AI is literally $1.6 trillion in debt, but Texas agriculture puts $868 billion into the economy and 4.4 million jobs? But you guys didn’t talk about that.

[00:16:50] Tim Dosch: Well, we weren’t talking about Texas agricultural land because we deal more with data centers than we do with, we sell agricultural land for development, but not for agriculture. But I think I’m not really sure exactly where the point is with that. I think that there’s different points here that people have. One of them is probably the real point that I do think there’s a bubble to some extent with AI because you have a lot of debt and you have very profitable companies, but in relationship to the debt, there might be some concerns there about how much debt they have and how much profitability they have. I don’t think that means that AI is not a valuable technology and it’s not just a game changer for pretty much everything. I think it is. I think it’s here to stay. And if you compare it to the internet, with the internet we had a bubble, the dot-com bubble everybody talks about, and that did burst, but that didn’t stop the internet. The internet took over and everybody uses it every single day. And it’s hard to know where this person was going if they’re trying to say that somehow we need to, to not allow AI because it’s not as valuable as agriculture. I don’t really know what they’re trying to say, but I don’t think that AI is bad because there’s debt. I do think that there could be investors that lose money because there’s so much debt, but I think we’ll see AI and data centers continue no matter how much debt there is in AI. And I also think that the benefit Texas has, when people take out debt, they’re doing that to spend it on something. And in this case, you’re spending it on chips, on infrastructure, on data centers. Manufacturing. And a lot of that is happening in Texas. And so I would say that it’s actually a positive. For one thing, it’s not taken away from Texas agriculture at all. Those are 2 separate things. You still have Texas agriculture that’s not being threatened, but now you have trillions of dollars being spent in Texas. You have jobs being created, you have manufacturing happening in Texas, you have these very expensive facilities. You, Tom, you mentioned we saw a video last night on the Gigafactory that Elon’s building, which is incredible. And so all that’s happening in Texas. So this actually a very good thing for Texas. So to this person’s point, all this debt that these companies are taking on, it’s actually benefiting Texas. Maybe it isn’t great for the industry, maybe it isn’t great for investors. Yeah, I think you could definitely argue that’s a valid point, but from a Texas standpoint, there’s probably a lot of value there.

[00:19:11] Tom Dosch: I think that’s a good point, Tim. My guess is the question’s getting more at data centers replacing agricultural land as a concern, and I could see that being a concern of people that are just thinking about, they’re hearing, like I said, 270 acres in Kirkland, Texas that’s being developed for a data center. Maybe that was farmland, right? Like Texas has like over 170 million acres of land. So there’s a lot of land in Texas. And I think it’s less about thinking that every data center has to replace agricultural land. And I think it’s thinking about the agricultural land is really important. That’s really important in Texas and data centers have a place in Texas as well. And there’s plenty of land for both because there’s a lot of land in Texas that’s also not agricultural land, right? And yeah, maybe by also developing data centers, I think there’d be an argument that what we’re going to, the advancements we’re going to see should help the efficiency of the agricultural industry and the way that we’re using land too.

[00:20:07] Tim Dosch: Yeah.

[00:20:08] Tom Dosch: I think that it just shouldn’t be looked at as an either or, but I definitely understand the question because there is a concern that a lot of our farmland has been, is no longer being farmed. And that’s not just Texas though, that’s like across the country. And so it is important that we have agricultural land. So I understand that, but I just don’t think it has to be an either/or in this situation.

[00:20:29] Tim Dosch: Yeah, I agree. There’s really no competition at all. You might have some agricultural land that goes to a data center, but we see that every day with single-family communities that come in and replace rice farms. Or again, that’s kind of what you’re talking about. For some reason, we have this different calculus when it comes to data centers, that they’re the threat that’s replacing things, but then no one’s worried if someone goes and builds a master-planned community with a golf course that’s going to take up more water and it’s going to limit all the agricultural land that it’s built on. And so I think we just have to be honest about what we’re comparing and what we’re against, that people just aren’t doing that.

[00:21:05] Tom Dosch: Yeah. So Tim, then I also, I think part of the question there was, jobs and comparing data center to agriculture jobs in Texas. Allie, what was the number on jobs in Texas?

[00:21:19] Allie: Yeah, the data center industry supported almost half a million jobs and contributed $35 billion in labor income to Texas in 2023 alone.

[00:21:29] Tom Dosch: Yeah, that’s incredible. And so that was the most recent stats. That’s a couple years ago. So you think about what that looks like today, just with the growth that we’ve seen. And that’s incredible because we were talking about this, Tim, our economy, our greater economy would be in a recession if not for what we’re seeing in the AI space and just the growth that we’ve seen. I know there was the question here about debt and obviously there could be a bubble and there’s probably likely to be an investment bubble at some point related to AI. There just probably has to be because of how this is all trading. But at the same time, there has been so much investment and there is so much job creation here. You think about 500,000 jobs, and like I said, jobs in areas like Kirkland, Texas, which is a, it’s a really small town. It’s a there’s, it’s not a populated area. It’s so beneficial for them. I was looking at some stats on a data center of that size and a data center of that size, it’s going to generate probably over 5,000 workers daily. Onsite, and then permanent jobs are actually going to be pretty significant at a data center that’s that big. So that’s going to be great for that economy. I think jobs definitely are good to hit. And then something else that I was thinking about just with that question, and then we’ll move on to the next, is I think that the property tax base that data centers bring, even though a lot of them will receive some form of incentives, the investment is incredible. I don’t know if the general audience understands that, like, a small data center costs a couple hundred million dollars to develop, but one of these large data centers that’s gigawatt plus, it could be like over $10 billion, just the cost. So you think about what they’re worth and the value attributed to that. If you took a, not even one of the large ones, but more of a, maybe a hyperscaler campus, not a massive AI campus, it’s going to be generating or maybe around $15 million on average in just revenue back to the city through property taxes, depending on the incentive structure and all that. That’s incredible revenue that wouldn’t be there. And there’s a lot that I know about a lot of these data centers that have been developed in the DFW area or are under development, and they’re not actually going on agricultural land. They’re going on old campuses, like old corporate campuses that those corporations moved, and they’re vacant, and there’s no one else that was there to buy them. Or they’re going on just land sites in some of these markets that are maybe just wooded sites and there’s not really any agriculture or anything there. It’s just held by a family for a long time. And then a data center comes because of the power availability and redevelops them.

[00:24:01] Tim Dosch: Yeah, I think it’s a pretty incredible point if you think a lot of these counties, because a lot of these data centers are being built in rural counties that don’t have a very big tax base. And so when you have a data center come in, And you’re talking about long-term tax revenue. Like you said, even if there are incentives, those burn off after a while, and they’re paying taxes every single year, and they’re not adding more children to the schools or a bigger need for health and safety or anything like that, but they’re paying into that system in a huge way, especially compared to what the other uses in a lot of these counties where you don’t have a lot of commercial uses or industry. Maybe you have a lot of farmland or ranchland or just people living there. It’s actually a pretty incredible tax base for these different communities.

[00:24:46] Tom Dosch: Allie, what’s another question, comment that would be worth discussing here?

[00:24:51] Allie: This one’s referring to the almond industry, saying this is a great example of something that does indeed take a huge amount of water, but what about the fact that it’s an established industry that grew over time versus a whole new one that’s a massive drain that just showed up all at once? We also skipped the part where there’s already significant pushback on the agriculture industry in California for the exact reason of water related to almond growth.

[00:25:18] Tim Dosch: Yeah, I think there’s, it’s an interesting point. I don’t really know that there’s a valuable point in saying just because something’s been going for a long time, it’s more valuable than something new, which seems to be the premise of that question that in some ways something has to earn a lot of time. to be able to get resources, even if it’s proving valuable. What I would say to that is we, a lot of times we have these artificial ceilings. And so water might be a ceiling. There’s only so much water. And so we’re looking at this from a kind of a scarcity mindset of there’s very little water to go around. We can’t support everything, so we have to conserve water. But when you look at especially California, I mean, next to the ocean, we have that same thing in Texas. The way that has been solved in the Gulf states, that are in the desert that don’t have water. They have these desalinization plants and they have a thriving, growing community, growing economies, and they’re taking water outta the ocean using desalinization plants. And so I think thinking about how can we be a little bit more creative in solving some of these things, maybe adjusting the ceiling that we have instead of thinking of everything as from a scarcity mindset. And I think a lot of the problems in California, there are water issues, but also they’ve had a lot of environmental impact issues with farming where they’re worried about salamanders and geckos and endangered species. And that’s been a lot of the pushback there, not just actual water. So I think that’s probably a good point that could be made. So I don’t know, Tom, what you’d say to that, but…

[00:26:44] Tom Dosch: Yeah, I was just going to add to this. I think that if you’re looking at it from the standpoint of we’re about to have 1,000 data centers developed or whatever you think that number is, and then you go back and look at water usage on the earlier generation data centers, then you could extrapolate, we’re not prepared for this. And so maybe, Tim, that’s the argument that the almond industry is mature and it’s been around a long time. And so we’re like prepared to handle the water usage, but we’re not prepared to handle the water usage if we see this amount of data center development. But something that I thought we did discuss on that last episode was there’s a lot of efficiency being created and how these data centers are handling water. And so an example is Microsoft. I thought this was a really good example. So Microsoft on their early data centers, their water usage was about 2.3 liters a kilowatt hour, and now it’s 0.27. So it’s 90% less than it was, and that’s moving even further in that direction of efficiency. So they’re finding new ways to cool these down. And again, it’s funny because it’s like the more investment in data centers and AI, the more there’s going to be a solution for this problem because of the ability to leverage these LLMs to find solutions. And so I think you already see that happening. Now, I’m sure in some of these other industries, like the almond industry, they’re also experimenting. Are there ways that we can reduce water in the almond industry? But that’s pretty incredible with data centers to be able to reduce it by 90%. And so I think that that’s just an important part of the conversation. I think the other good thing about that, clearly with that type of progress, there’s a lot of focus on how can we do better. And that’s what’s important. I think what we’re not saying is that there aren’t issues to be solved here. It’s really good that there’s been that progress. But what we are saying is let’s not just say there’s a moratorium and data centers can’t be developed. And then the stats that we’re using are maybe old stats on the water that they use versus the new capabilities and the new technology that they’re using.

[00:28:43] Tim Dosch: I think it’s also part of the problem. I think there’s a premise to a lot of the way people think about this or their questions that data centers are being developed and they’re just taking resources. And so there’s other uses, whether it’s farming or residential uses, there’s other uses where there’s actually, their resources are being taken away. So suddenly they don’t have water anymore, they don’t have power anymore. And that’s just not the case. These new data centers have to provide, to have enough water to sustain themselves and enough power. They can’t take from the community that they’re in. And I know that that’s a federal thing. It’s also a local thing too that is being enforced. So I think that might also be part of the issue that people need to think about is if you’re thinking that these data centers are coming in and just taking everything, so now there’s no water for anyone else, then I can understand why people would be against it. But that’s not the case.

[00:29:40] Tom Dosch: Allie, how about another comment?

[00:29:41] Allie: Yeah, this one’s short and sweet. It says, you don’t even need data centers to stream.

[00:29:47] Tom Dosch: So yeah, that was, you mentioned that one to me earlier and I was like, that’s really interesting. So that’s one of those where if, when that gets thrown out, you’re like, really? You don’t? And so I had to do a little bit of research on that. And from what I can find, and maybe the, the person that made that comment would want to follow up with just a little bit more information. But from what I can find, yes, you do actually need data centers to stream. And really, ultimately, the content is coming from servers that are housed in data centers. And so you think about, we mentioned Netflix a lot, you know, on the podcast, because that just comes to mind. But whether it’s like YouTube or Spotify or Netflix, there’s so much data there. Where is the data being served or hosted? And it’s being hosted on these servers. And so you do actually need data centers. Maybe this person has a way that they can stream some content. But ultimately, if you want, I think what we’re talking about, which is just the ability to go and stream something like Hulu or Netflix or, you know, whatever that might be, you are going to need data centers. Tim, what do you think people should be focused on when they’re thinking about are data centers good for our economy? Because I think that’s more where we want to be focused is saying like we believe they’re really necessary infrastructure. That’s what we talked about last time. These are the roads, these are the railroads, of the past that are needed for the modern economy. And so they’re needed, but saying something like data centers aren’t needed for streaming, and that’s like your argument, that it’s just not probably where we want to be talking. So where do you think like a good place or a good debate would be around data centers?

[00:31:19] Tim Dosch: I think the only real concern I have that we’ve both talked about is who controls AI in the future and does AI become very politically correct? Or does someone go in there and try and change what truth is? Because I think that if you look at AI, and I know that Elon Musk has been really big on this, is that he wants it to be about truth, about reality. And if you were to get a situation where AI is extremely intelligent, but it also is being controlled by the government or by some entity that wants to have power, that wants to have this nanny state, situation where they can control people, watch over things. I think that would be the concern I would have much more than resources or anything like that. I actually think AI is going to be pretty incredible at solving a lot of problems like resources, just the math that it’s solving already and some of the protein folding with medicine. There’s some incredible advancements that we’re making, not that we’re going to make, we’ve already made. And that I think we will continue to make. And I don’t really have a concern about resources. I have a much bigger concern about what AI becomes and who controls it and how fast it’s developed. I think we shared, you shared a good podcast with me, Tom. It was on the Diary of the CEO a couple episodes ago about the guy that predicted, I think the 2025 kind of AI where we would be, and then 2027. But he has some concerns about just how fast it’s moving and we’re sort of in this race and then ultimately who’s going to be in control of it.

[00:32:55] Tom Dosch: Yeah, I think that was a really good point. I agree with what you’re saying. I think when I think about AI, I’m probably more concerned about AI than I am data centers. I think data centers are, we’ve already had data centers. This is not new. And I think talking about incredibly negative impact on the environment just may not be fully fair. And that’s what we’re trying to get at. And we’re also saying, if that’s the case, let’s use real data, real information, and then let’s challenge these developers to continue to make the product more efficient in its use of environmental resources. And that’s what they’re doing. But ultimately, I think what’s going to happen is you’re going to see this type of development in space because there is so much regulation here on land in the US and these different countries. And so I think SpaceX and other companies like SpaceX, that’s why there is this huge race. And I thought that was interesting on that episode we listened to on Moonshots where he talked about our plan is to get man back on space in 2028 and then to have like these nuclear reactors in space. And it’s pretty amazing. This is coming from our government in the next couple years.

[00:33:58] Tim Dosch: Yeah.

[00:33:58] Tom Dosch: This isn’t coming from Elon because Elon will say things and people just roll their eyes. But now people are starting to say, okay, that’s actually, that’s what we need to do. And the technology is advanced so fast that we’re reusing rockets now and just all of that. So I agree that my bigger concern would be around ultimately someone is going to hold the power around it. I don’t know that there’s really anything we can necessarily do about that. I think that’s what’s probably the scariest thing. I think it’s good that our government’s trying to get involved in figuring out how to regulate it. I just don’t know that they’re going to be able to do a good job. They’re probably going to get Yeah. And I think that’s what he said in that podcast was his predictions. He actually is surprised the government’s already involved. He didn’t predict the government being involved this quickly to regulate it. But you have all of these different large AI companies racing against one another. Some of them have said different things about the future of our world. Some of them would say we’re creating a new species and this new species is like the evolution of mankind and Mankind might not exist, which is very scary. And then you have the ones that are like, no, like Elon, he’s like, no, I care about humans. I want this to be done right. He’s teamed up with Anthropic because he said he feels like Anthropic is trying. He believes they’re trying to look at the future and be really thoughtful about what the future looks like with AI. And obviously he’s not a big fan of OpenAI. So I think I told you this the other day. I was like, we can study this and learn about it, but we’re definitely not the ones in power or in control. And the people can be really upset about it, but I think it’s important to try to work together and figure out, like, how does opposing things when we don’t have good reasons really help the greater cause? I don’t think it does. How can we come together about what really matters?

[00:35:46] Tim Dosch: Yeah, if you look at history, there’s never been a technological innovation that has been stopped. If technology is innovative and works and it makes things better or more efficient, it gets developed. And so I think to think that we could stop AI even as a country or regulate it in some way, it’s going to be developed whether here or it’s going to be developed in Argentina or somewhere that’s favorable to it. So it’s going to happen. And I think it’s going to, I’m, I know that like you, we’re very excited about it and I’m taking more of the optimistic view on it because I think it could solve some incredible things that I’m excited about. But I know there’s going to be a lot of fear around it and, and there are potential negatives. If we’re just being honest, there are concerns about it and ways it could be misused that could hurt people. And so it’s going to be interesting to see just how it develops over the next couple of years. My personal view is we’re going to have an economic bubble burst with it. To that point about the amount of debt, I think you’re going to have something that could be somewhat similar to the dot-com bubble bursting. I think it’s different because I think in this case you have very real companies and real technology. And so I think what could happen is the society thinking, oh, that was over AI, we, the bubble burst and these companies got devalued, their stock prices fell, and the media will pick up on that and make a big deal about that. And I think what’s actually going to be happening the whole time is AI is going to be progressing and growing and just becoming more and more impactful the whole time. And so I think in a couple of years we’re going to see it continue to just to change everything, change the way we work, change the way we live, change Just the opportunities that we have, the things that can be built, the way they can be built, our healthcare. I don’t think we’re ready for it at all as a culture. And I don’t think our government, I think our government is so far behind that it’s almost funny to think they could try and regulate it. So it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out. And even just this data center conversation as it impacts our business, we’re working on data center deals, we’re competing against them. There’s deals we’re trying to buy where there’s data centers we’re bidding against. We’re obviously trying to build a different kind of development than what they’re doing, but it’s something we’re going to be dealing with every single day the next couple of years.

[00:37:57] Tom Dosch: Yeah. Thanks, Tim. This is a very interesting conversation and it is fun to talk about this because it’s a little different than our normal topic. And we love to see the engagement of people that are listening to the episodes, watching us on YouTube and just checking out the content. Come find Texas Land Guys on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Please subscribe to the channel and feel free to comment too, because from time to time we’ll discuss the comments on a future episode. You can go watch these episodes full length or even just the shorts on YouTube as well. So thanks for joining this week, and Tim, looking forward to next week.

[00:38:33] Tim Dosch: Sounds good. Thanks, Tom.

[00:38:36] Outro: Thank you for listening to our podcast today. If you have questions about land you own in Texas, send us an email at texaslandguys@dmre.com and follow us on LinkedIn to stay updated.